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The Effect of Scientific Error in Christian Apologetics
Casualties in the Creation-Evolution debate
Data collected by G.R. Morton
http://home.entouch.net/dmd/whocares.htm
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The following was an e-mail I posted on a listserve on which I spend some time. The data clearly shows the effects of not having a scientifically successful harmonization between Scripture and science. The results as anecdotally shown below are sad and devastating:
During my recent bout of arguing for historicity for parts of the Scripture that are generally not considered historical, several people publicly and privately implied that the area of origins is really not that important.
Because of this widespread belief on this listserve that this issue is not that important, (as is evidenced by [name removed] thread "How many Folks Really Care?", I decided to get some anecdotal data on who cares. I posted three questions on Talk.Origins, the usenet group that regularly beats up on Christians. The questions are included in the notes below. I have been given permission to post the notes, but I have removed all e-mail addresses. It seems that lots of people didn't want to get spammed by Christian presentations of the gospel and requested that their e-mails be removed.
Anyway, here are some people who cared when they were Christians about whether Genesis harmonized with Science or not. They decided that it didn't. This is the best case I can put before anyone as to why a harmonization is important. We are losing people to the faith.
The Responses:
Grmorton wrote:
This apparently didn't make it out of here this morning. so I will try again. On another listserve, the issue came up as to who cares about Genesis being history. I mentioned that there are lots of former Christians, who are now atheists who did care that Genesis didn't seem to concord with science and history and because of this left the faith. What I would like to do is test that assertion. If you are an atheist, who was a Christian in the past, I would like the answer to a couple of questions.
1. How important were the problems between Genesis and Science to your decision to leave Christianity?
It was one of two major reasons I left. As my awareness and understanding of science and the evidence became more sophisticated (I've always read many science books and magazines), the idea of a literal creation or flood myth, a la Genesis, became more and more ridiculous. The more I read Genesis, the more it seemed like myth to me. It simply doesn't mesh with what we know from the fossil record or the molecular evidence.
The other major reason I left was that I was one of the few Christians I knew who actually read the entire Bible, and I just couldn't stomach the vindictive, genocidal god portrayed in the Old Testament. If that god exists, then this universe is absolutely absurd. A god who is willing to wipe out entire portions of his creation and to infinitely punish finite sins sounds more like a devil to me. I'm an optimist, so I like to think the universe makes sense.
While I briefly considered a figurative interpretation of Genesis as a solution to my evidence-inspired doubts, it failed to address my second major concern with Christianity: the spitefulness of the OT god. I gradually concluded that Christianity, while it contains some uplifting and helpful elements, is, on the whole, a false belief system. I am now comfortably agnostic.
2. If it wasn't this issue what issue was the most important?
See above.
3. Can I post your reply to another listserv which is generally inhabited by Christians?
Yes, but please remove my name from the header. Thanks.
**
GRMorton wrote:
1. How important were the problems between Genesis and Science to your decision to leave Christianity?
Very. The main one. There were ancillary moral issues involved, such as the fate of those who had never heard the Gospel, and various bad behaviors of God in the Old Testament.
**
You write:
This apparently didn't make it out of here this morning. so I will try again. On another listserve, the issue came up as to who cares about Genesis being history. I mentioned that there are lots of former Christians, who are now atheists who did care that Genesis didn't seem to concord with science and history and because of this left the faith. I'm not sure if I would call myself an atheist but I do believe at this point in my life "former Christian" is correct.
What I would like to do is test that assertion. If you are an atheist, who was a Christian in the past, I would like the answer to a couple of questions.
1. How important were the problems between Genesis and Science to your decision to leave Christianity?
Coming from a fundamentalist background, these problems proved to me in a way that no other Biblical "problem" ever has that the Bible is not literally true. With this understanding came the gradual realization that all of the fundamentalist doctrines I'd been taught and believed were founded on false premises. This engendered a sense of betrayal, feelings of anger and confusion, and over time a perhaps somewhat irrational need to distance myself from Christian beliefs as much as possible, although I intellectually acknowledge the far more reasonable beliefs and approaches of the liberal forms of Christianity.
From there I've reached the present, abandoning all forms of religion and in some sense searching for god "from scratch". I don't know where I'll end up.
3. Can I post your reply to another listserv which is generally inhabited by Christians?
Sure.
-ted
**
[NOTE: This one illustrates that the advancement of solutions which don't match fact, repels people.- GRM]
In article <5n4vge$dqv$1@sulu.isource.net, GRMorton <GRMorton@isource.net writes
1. How important were the problems between Genesis and Science to your decision to leave Christianity?
Only part of it.
2. If it wasn't this issue what issue was the most important?
That, the atrocities in the Old Testament, the atrocities of more recent Christians, and the realization that there are more ways of being moral than being religious. What really turned me into a non-Christian was going to a christian discussion group at university and finding out what weird things they believed and how they couldn't agree on any way of coming to a shared understanding. What's turned me into an anti- christian and indeed anti-religionist (I don't like any fundamentalists, christian, islamic, jewish, or Nichiren) is the fundamentalists on talk.origins - the combination of ignorance, aggression, and lies are really too much to take. I don't want any association with any organization that has space for behaviour like that. There's a few other things, but that's basically it.
3. Can I post your reply to another listserv which is generally inhabited by Christians?
OK if you leave identifying details right off. I could do without threats of hellfire or attempts at conversion. This goes for you too - just in case you feel tempted :-)
**
On 4 Jun 1997 19:50:31 -0400, in talk.origins you wrote:
What I would like to do is test that assertion. If you are an atheist, who was a Christian in the past, I would like the answer to a couple of questions.
Well, I'm not sure I would go so far as to call myself an atheist, but I was a fundamentalist Christian (Penticostal) for ten years (age 10-20), and then saw the light :-)
1. How important were the problems between Genesis and Science to your decision to leave Christianity?
Very. The thing that originally got me started was Asimov's study of the bible, which blew my (brainwashed) mind. Then, as I studied & learned more, things just spiralled out of control. It was a very enlightening experience, to say the least.
3. Can I post your reply to another listserv which is generally inhabited by Christians?
I'd rather you didn't, unless it's done anonymously. **
In response to your questions
[edited part removed]
I have rambled way to long. In closing I want to say that I hadn't thought vary much about religion and I was content being a good person and a good biologist and found the discoveries of molecular biology stimulating and then suddenly I learn that some religious people are trying distort facts to fit their 'Truth' and what is more they insisted that everyone else believe their 'Truth'. This insistance on believing literally in Genisis at first struck me as humorous and eventually frieghtening. So I would say that if anything this whole 'creation' thing has served only to drive a wedge between my own beliefs and religion. Certainly the crack no matter how beniegn was already there.
3) In so far as I fear religious people I do not want you to give my name or address or phone number to any of them. I suppose it is really impossible to remain completely anon. on the net but please try.
**
[Note: This response while not coming from someone who believed the Bible, illuminates the difficulty of not having a workable harmonization between Science and Theology.---GRM]
Replying to GRMorton@isource.net (GRMorton)
1. How important were the problems between Genesis and Science to your decision to leave Christianity?
Not at all. I never considered Genesis to be a literally true. I always considered it an allegory or even simply folklore. : 2. If it wasn't this issue what issue was the most important?
The realization that God is not necessary for the everyday workings of the universe; that 'lifeforce' is not necessary for life; the numerous internal inconsistencies in the bible (the parts of it I _didn't_ consider allegories or demented rambling (Revelations)). In short: my biology education put God out of work, or relegated him to the corners of the universe science has yet to reach, such as chaos. IMO it is a reasonable assumption to assume gods non-existance on the premise that he is not needed, and on the observation that his supposed role diminishes as science advances (from running the show completely as a ruler, to a creator having kicked off the universe 5B years ago and then kept away, or a manipulator hiding from us behind the concept of chaos).
The problem with how god, being completely good and all-powerful, can allow evil in the world was never a problem for me; having had pets all my life I realized that a superior intelligence may have to do things which his subjects doesn't approve of, but which were necessary. : 3. Can I post your reply to another listserv which is generally : inhabited by Christians?
I'd rather not, since that invariably leads to my mail box being flooded with commercial email. Been there, done that. I now have a spam-stop in my address, but I don't want to test it THAT hard. If you remove my email-address you are free to repost it, though.
**
On 4 Jun 1997 19:50:31 -0400, GRMorton@isource.net (GRMorton) wrote:
1. How important were the problems between Genesis and Science to your decision to leave Christianity?
it wasnt the contradiction since i never believed literalism anyhow. what DID make a difference was the fact that a substantial number of xtians believed in literalism. it seemed to be a dogma for the religion of many.
2. If it wasn't this issue what issue was the most important?
privacy. the right of individuals to have morals inconsistent with xtian morals.
3. Can I post your reply to another listserv which is generally inhabited by Christians?
yep.
**
In article <5n4vge$dqv$1@sulu.isource.net, GRMorton@isource.net says...
If you are an atheist, who was a Christian in the past, I would like the answer to a couple of questions.
I would consider myself an agnostic or a Deist. I no longer believe in the God of the Bible or Koran. Taoism and Buddhism make more religious sense to me and I am a secular humanist and for the most part subscribe to the ideas espoused in the first and second Humanist Manifestos.
Before I left the Church, I was a very involved Anglican. I was a member of the Vestry of our parish and seriously considered the Priesthood.
1. How important were the problems between Genesis and Science to your decision to leave Christianity?
Not very, the Anglican church generally has no theological problem with the theory of Evolution, nor science in general. A literal reading of the Genesis is considered foolish.
2. If it wasn't this issue what issue was the most important?
The Nature of God, and the Divinity of Jesus Christ. I came to the conclusion that the Bible was at best a very limited and limiting approach to understanding God, and that it was a work of man, attempting to explain the spiritual side of existance. Over time I came to the conclusion that God, if such an entity exists, doesn't involve itself in the small stuff of the Universe, and that any purpose that such and entity might have is intrinsically unknowable by man. That the best we could do, was to enjoy its creation, be good stewards and be kind to one another. I do not believe in a heaven or a hell, nor in the continued existance of self after death.
3. Can I post your reply to another listserv which is generally inhabited by Christians?
sure
**
On another listserv I once wrote:
GMIf the Bible is nothing but a nonhistorical set of nomad myths, which are objectively false, then why bother with christianity. To say everything in a document is historically false but the message in it is true, seems ludicrous to me. I would not apply such logic in my work.
and received a reply from an atheist:
This is a reasonably good summary of why I am not a Christian. However, I don't believe that the Old Testament is completely nonhistorical. Rather, I am more convinced by the claim that it is a record of a race's attempts to deal with divine concepts, rather than a record of a race's actual relationship with a divine being.
**
Replying to GRMorton@isource.net (GRMorton)
1. How important were the problems between Genesis and Science to your decision to leave Christianity?
Not much. I left Christianity before I knew much of anything about either evolution or creationism. The only real conflict that influenced me was between the claim of existence of God and the lack of evidence of the type of God claimed.
2. If it wasn't this issue what issue was the most important?
The main thing that drove me away was hypocrisy, particularly from those who claim to idealize love but showed bigotry towards non-Christians (and, in many cases, even to other Christians). Also influential were logical inconsistencies, such as the all-loving God who tortures people for eternity, and the conflict mentioned above.
3. Can I post your reply to another listserv which is generally inhabited by Christians?
Yes, anonymously.
**
GRMorton wrote:
1. How important were the problems between Genesis and Science to your decision to leave Christianity?
Very. While my father was a liberal Christian pastor, the other folks teaching Sunday School were Fundamentalists, and they constantly harped on issues which I knew to be untrue. If I pointed any of them out, I was verbally abused and made to look stupid. Genesis was a huge problem because they insisted on literalist interpretations of it's passages.
They eventually argued that I was disruptive for disagreeing with them, and had me removed from the classes. I was strongly affected by this experience; it was the first I'd had with people who claimed religious beliefs but clearly hated and discriminated against those who simply disagreed or were curious. I was taught to respect and love my opponents; they were taught to walk roughshod over their remains, apparently, in the Name of God.
That's how they behaved.
2. If it wasn't this issue what issue was the most important?
You should see it by now. My father's career was cut short when he was assigned to a church which didn't want him. After he demanded the return of financial instruments owned by the church, but used by the controlling council to secure loans on houses and the like, he was accused of being mentally ill. Oh, funny, these were fundamentalists. He had several other power struggles in churches with various fundamentalists, several of which took the time to explain to me - around the age of 12 - 14, numerous times - that my father was evil, and such. These were the most Christian of the people in the church, the "wear-it- on-their-sleeve" kinds. Funny thing, what they wanted was control of the church. After noting this, I became very interested in other religions, and found them to be as plausible and sincere as Christianity. But only the professionals could be said to embody their religions - for most others, it was a pastime, not a sincere observance; or, it was an all-consuming power struggle. And many of the priests and rabbis were themselves wrapped up in disdain or prejudice.
So the main questions for me were: Why are so many Christians un-Christian? Why are other religions just as sincere, if they are wrong, and how can we choose?
3. Can I post your reply to another listserv which is generally inhabited by Christians?
If you can do so anonymously, that would be fine. I'd rather not be swamped by well-meaning people out to bring me back to the fold. I know some very fine Christians who'd do that any day of the week, should I so desire.
If you don't want to post your response, an e-mail to me will be fine. I will talley the results and post the results in a few days.
I hope it's useful.
**
(A copy of this message has also been posted to the following newsgroups: talk.origins)
In article <5n4vge$dqv$1@sulu.isource.net, GRMorton@isource.net (GRMorton) wrote:
If you are an atheist, who was a Christian in the past, I would like the answer to a couple of questions.
I'm not an atheist, but an apathetic agnostic ("don't know, don't care"), but...
1. How important were the problems between Genesis and Science to your | decision to leave Christianity?
The general lack of knowledge of science, philosophy (from the likes of Schaffer and Guinness) and history were major factors in my rejection of evangelical conservative thought.
2. If it wasn't this issue what issue was the most important?
Among other things, the complete timewarp of culture - the idea that one had to be living as though the Depression had never ended (this was a Baptist church, and later an evangelical Anglican one). There were also the ethical issues and moral questions associated with those who were able to denigrate others while living very comfortable lives, thank you.
It is onerous to require that a single issue can overturn a deeply held and complex view of life. If there had not been an antiscience attitude amongst evangelicals, then there may have been a more pro-intellectual attitude (rule out science and you rule out a lot of intellectual life), and so I may have been able to find a place in that movement.
Once the issue was thrown up for reconsideration, for reasons that are still quite personal, I was unable to re-enter that hermeneutic circle, and with the attitudes within it, I had no reason to want to.
3. Can I post your reply to another listserv which is generally inhabited by Christians?
It's on the 'net, so why not...
A final point. If I were on the verge of acceptance, the antiscience attitude of evangelicalism (and most forms of catholic Christianity, excluding perhaps Orthodoxy) would definitely deter me. Any faith that cannot live in the world as it is, is defective, and not to be considered by a rational thinker, on pain of self-contradiction.
-- John Wilkins, Head of Communication Services, Walter and Eliza Hall Institute of Medical Research [Remove .UNSPAM from header address]
It is not enough to succeed. Friends must be seen to have failed. - Capote
**
GRMorton <GRMorton@isource.net wrote:
1. How important were the problems between Genesis and Science to your decision to leave Christianity?
No impact whatsoever.
2. If it wasn't this issue what issue was the most important?
The historicity or otherwise of various gospel stories; and most significantly the resurrection; and the discovery that Jewish interpretations of the the old testament were mostly more reasonable than Christian interpretations.
3. Can I post your reply to another listserv which is generally inhabited by Christians?
Only if it is posted anonymously.
If you don't want to post your response, an e-mail to me will be fine. I will talley the results and post the results in a few days.
***
One final example, a man who is now a bigwig in the skeptics organization, is a former Christian who could not find any preacher or youth director who could answer his questions about Genesis. He finally figured that the Bible wasn't true and is now an atheist actively working at undermining the faith of others. This guy is a friend of mine and reviewed my book prior to my publishing it. He was quite helpful to me. But according to him, the main reason he left the faith was because of the problems between science and the Bible.
**
From: GRMorton@isource.net (GRMorton):
1. How important were the problems between Genesis and Science to your ! decision to leave Christianity?
I was not so bothered with the conflict between Genesis and science as by the description of a Supernatural entity who would send human beings to eternal torture in Hell just for having the wrong metaphysical beliefs.
However, since that was what I was told a God was, I was very motivated to look at the evidence carefully and hectupally check everything because I was worried that if Genesis was wrong, it would be Christians who would jibber and shriek in Hell. The evidence suggests that Genesis is wrong. Therefore I would not be within my epistemological rights to be a Christian.
2. If it wasn't this issue what issue was the most important?
The most important issue was the problem of evil. The closer an entity is to the God described in the Bible, the more difficult it becomes to account for the existence of evil.
3. Can I post your reply to another listserv which is generally inhabited by Christians?
Go ahead.
**
Another person posted this on the evolution reflector. It is at:
http://www.calvin.edu/archive/evolution/199801/0077.html
I have his permission to post this.
[snip] Bio Section: I include the following not only because I want everyone to know where I am coming from, and want help dealing with my recent paradigm shift, but also because the page, "About the evolution@calvin.edu group" recommends, "I do want to encourage everyone on the list to communicate something about who they are and what their particular interest in evolution or origins comes from." Ok. First of all, I am a hydraulic engineer, working for a company where we design and manufacture hydroturbines. About a year and a half ago, I was a firm special creationist. I am now a believer in evolution; not even sure if God is required. In 1995, Glenn Morton wrote to Stephen Jones about Stephen's provisional acceptance of common descent (as quoted by SJ Sunday, January 11, 1998 5:16 PM), "I know exactly how difficult a paradigm shift like that is." Well, let me tell you, the shift is absolutely devastating. I'm still struggling with all this. I still hold some anger because I believe the evangelical Christian community did not properly prepare me for the creation/evolution debate. They gave me a gun loaded with blanks, and sent me out. I was creamed.
Scott Rauch
***
This is a late entry.
1. How important were the problems between Genesis and Science to your decision to leave Christianity?
(Hey I just found this question set. Hope you're still interested) Answer: I think it was an important catalyst. Growing up my big sister was a devout born again Christian. I went off to Baptist Bible Camp at age 14 and became born again also. It was an interesting psychological experience. Very powerful.
Upon returning home a couple of weeks later, I was immediately a part of my big sister's social circle of young Christians. For whatever reason the prevailing opinion of this group of teenage Christians was the YEC viewpoint. Some of these folks were very passionate about the YEC position. Well, I was only 14, but I was heavily interested in math and science. I was also a little smart ass. I must admit I enjoyed trying to trip up the older kids when they started in on radiometric dating, or evolution. Over the next year as I learned more science, I slowly went from engaging in arguments with my Christian YEC friends for mental exercise, to doing so because I began to see how really bad, inaccurate, and invalid the YEC arguments were.
By the time I was 16 I had graduated high school early and was
enrolled at a local junior college. During the summer session I took Intro to Geology and that was
all it took. I remember I realized that those older kids were totally wrong, their ignorance
and arrogance was like intellectual repellent. Within a few months I didn't want anything to do with
them.
2. If it wasn't this issue what issue was the most important?
Answer: To be honest they seemed a little weird to me after I learned more science. It was like they didn't trust me suddenly when the science subject came up. I was an instant outsider. They were just so hopelessly mislead and deluded. When commenting on God they seemed like normal enthusiastic young people. But when they spoke about certain subjects, it was like they switched into a sort of altered state of mind. Their eyes glazed over when they discussed things like the shrinking sun argument, or the moon dust argument. You remember back in the '70's when you would see a Moonie on TV? That spaced-out detached look they had in their eyes? It was a most disturbingly similar look I was seeing in these older kids eyes when they discussed YEC. Shortly afterward I was equipped with my own driver's license and no longer being nearly so dependant on my siblings to cart me around I politely drifted away from that group- much to my big sister's distress.
Over the next few years I came to suspect that my born again
experience was more a consequences of human neurophysiology than supernatural intervention. As my
education broadened in college and then graduate school, the petty OT God, the idea of human destiny
being a mere pawn in a cosmic pissing contest between rival childish Gods, a God who disguises
himself as his own human son and manipulates mankind in to murdering him to somehow save us from his
own rules...it just didn't make any sense. I think creationism really turned me off of religion in
the beginning. I don't think it was the only factor. I think I may have gotten enough of it anyway.
But because of YEC I came to really avoid Christians and most religious people for years. I saw them
as ignorant morons, I saw them as backward cults...as a cult that almost got ME.
But now at age 40, I view religion as a real source of comfort for people and I realize that the comfort is real regardless of whether or not the underlying deities truly exist. For that reason I rarely speak my mind to folks who are religious. But the idea of Gods and ghouls ... I couldn't believe that if I wanted to. Incidentally I recently moved from Austin, TX-a fairly progressive liberal town- to Melbourne, FL-where I get bible study flyers on my car's windshield while I'm in the grocery store. I had no idea how successfully YEC has been marketed until I moved here.
3. Can I post your reply to another listserv which is generally inhabited by Christians?
Answer: Sure if you remove my e-mail address and name (Glenn I've sent you other e-mails under -rockclimbing pics- and people are welcome to e-mail me back at that address). Notice I'm sending you this from a work IP. The e-mail address is my real name and my employer. I don't want random people knowing that, or e-mailing me back here. I'm usually too busy too write lengthy e-mails at work. It's just that because of the 9-11 anniversary things are really slow today in the stock and bond business. Very sad day.
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